My first pair....and....drama.......Virginia

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Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

Well, its been 3-4 years and I have been tirelessly working to make my setup attractive to the Martins. I have had visitors and even a male stay a few days in the gourds in the past but never anything more than that. Seemed each year was a little better than the one before. Until last year. It was a bad year. few martins here and my brothers colony didn't show up at all. He still doesn't have any this year too. hoping for the best, I setup on May 4th hoping the force would be with me. No luck that day as I assume the dark side won. However, on the next day a female showed up at 7:32am and within a few minutes a ASY male showed up blasting his calls. I guess it was time to drink a corona and put my light sabers away. He was looking good. Fully blue and purple in color. Clicking and chirping away. The female was hopping from door to door looking for the house of her choosing. She looked like a sub-adult but hard to tell. I was trying my best not to get my hopes up because these martins are so picky.

I spent the next 10 days using my traps and my pellet gun and broom to chase away and eliminate the Starlings and House Sparrows. My neighbors have 6 birdhouses and there are house sparrows in them all. I said that if they are in my yard they are fair game. So, it took a few days but I got 4 males and one female house sparrow in my cage trap with birdseed bait. I only got one starling with the pellet gun but the rest run as soon as they see me now. Martins also chase them off. Within a day of these threats being eliminated I had two new threats pop up. Blue Birds were the first. I have blue bird boxes up and the house sparrows had taken them over. So, I quickly went out and cleaned them out and painted them and put them up in different locations away from my pole hoping they would give up and use them. I also put one up higher when I saw tree sparrows diving down and trying to get my pole to be theirs. Eventually, I drove off the tree sparrows with my broom and the blue birds took over two of the three houses I put up and no longer bother the gourds. Sigh of relief.

I added a new pole guard for snakes and such. I added bamboo garden stakes as additional perches on all my rack arms. Martins were having trouble landing on the arms and the gourds sometimes seemed to be slippery. Now that is all in the past. Had the wife cooks some egg shell bits and I attached a plastic tray on a lower arm using zip ties for the shells and future mealworms. I hope they use it. I also put in new dry pine needles from the woods near my house.

So, its now about 10 days later and the pair is in the gourds every morning and night. Also, there are now 2 to 3 more martins that are at the pole most of the day. One is a female and the paired up female and her seem to be fighting over the ASY male. I have named my pair Covid and Corona for obvious reasons.

Today, I saw martins on the ground for the first time ever in 3-4 years of trying to attract them. I think they were either copulating as they fell down together and or getting some nest materials or the females were fighting it out. At this point I have two females and a male and I think one of the other visitors is a sub adult male and he is just waiting to see who loses the rights to the ASY male. However, I heard that males will mate with two females if the females let them. I do hope another male pairs up with the second female so the feeding duties will be easier on the ASY male.


I am still very cautious and will not get excited until I see some white eggs in the gourds. I know in my area of Virginia I have until almost June 15th for them to mate but I prefer sooner.


Could my 3-4 year wait be over? We will see. Stay tuned....


Shane aka Red
Jones4381
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:54 pm
Location: Rocky Mount VA
Martin Colony History: Newbie 51 years old and stumbled onto this by accident. Amazing bird. Just wanna help and give/receive happiness and be one with nature. Don't mind shooting an intruder of any kind though. Have a blessed day.

Awesome story and dedication. I'm 3 weeks in and see Martin's overhead but none landing in my area. Not even aware of a colony within 3 or 4 miles so I may be waiting like yourself.
51 year old HY beginner. Year 1 for me!
Brad Biddle
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:22 pm
Location: Marshall County AL

That was probably two birds fighting. If they are landing on the ground when not fighting they are gathering nesting material.

Everything you posted sounds promising
Martin landlord since 2003. Currently offering 132 plastic gourds with tunnels and all SREH.
deancamp
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:17 pm
Location: Raymore, MO

Quite the battle you have been fighting Red and you have gained the upper ground. Keep it up and your efforts will be rewarded as it sounds very promising with the activity you're seeing. Hopefully you can get another pair or two to commit.
Ryan
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Eganville, Ontario
Martin Colony History: Visitors are rare. Three SY males seen in 10 years.

Sounds like you're in pretty good shape. Good work putting the time in, hoping this is your year.
Home site: 12 cedar chalets - Plus two satellite sites which are also empty.
2010- 1 SY male on and off for a couple weeks
2011- 0 visits
2012- 0 visits
2013- 0 visits
2014- 1 SY male stopped in here and there for two weeks.
2015- 0 visits
2016- 0 visits
2017- 0 visits
2018- 0 visits
2019- Break-through year. Had a SY Male stop in on June 7th and stay all day, every day until end of June and built a nest. Hoping he returns in 2020 because I'm getting tired of updating this list.
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

Update:

Woke up and checked the pole this morning. 5 martins on it including my pair. Sat on my deck stuffing my face with chicken wings and then I saw it. My pair would sometimes go together or one at a time down to my yard and pick away and grab some stuff and fly it back to their chosen gourd. Most of the time it was the same gourd but occasionally the female would go to the gourd below and deposit her haul. Maybe just confused or making a backup. One of the other three is for sure sub adult male. So, I think I have two pair with extra female.

The others seem to be still choosing the gourd they want. My nest building pair(C&C) picked a troyer horizontal gourd. The other three are looking at the Bo11plus and another troyer h.

I have a few bo9 from my starting set but have been giving them to my brother as I replace them with bo11s. I have a natural gourd bought at martins day here in Virginia 2 years ago but I was repainting it and added venting. I’ll add to pole if numbers jump or swap out a bo9. The natural gourd is big. Like a soccer ball.

Brother has older metal housing so I told him to hang the gourds off the sides.
Hoping he will get his martins back.

I’ll try to post some pictures.


Red
Brad Biddle
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:22 pm
Location: Marshall County AL

Good deal. I have news for you. You are now a Martin landlord

Make sure you have predator guards on the pole
Martin landlord since 2003. Currently offering 132 plastic gourds with tunnels and all SREH.
Kegger
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:58 am
Location: Awesome Florida
Martin Colony History: Newbie in 2020: 2 pair of SY with 4 eggs each in Troyer Horizontals
fledged a total of 7 Martins

Congrats Rediwill! This is exciting news! 8)
4th Gen Martin Fan
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
Location: TN/Collierville
Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.

Congratulations, you are now a purple martin landlord!!

How do you like the Bo11Plus gourd? I just made an order with S&K and ordered one Bo11Plus to try out.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

I like the size of the bo11 plus but I think the feature that made me get them is the liner to help with wetness. I have vent caps and tunnels on all my s&k gourds. Another good feature is being able to rotate them and you can now stack them but I don’t think I’ll stack due to weight concerns. I am hoping they produce an owl guard for the tunnels sk sells. S&k has owlguard attachment if you don’t have tunnels attached but I wanted a deep gourd to prevent reach ins to get nestlings. Luckily troyer sells owl guard for their tunnels on horizontal gourd. I ordered 4 of those to start and will see how they work. I might have to do a diy guard for the bo9&11s since I have tunnels.

I heard white noise or waterfalls sounds help mask nighttime Martin sounds but I’m not sold on that. Think it’s more of a effort to success ratio for the owls and if other prey are easier. I try to be out near the pole at dusk and sunset to help hawks stay away but so far the Martins and various other birds chase off hawks or crows if they get close. I added the predator guard to pole last week and I’m in the process of making a wooden disc with rods and snake netting to go on top of it. Videos online for that.


Note: I bought two bo11 black gourds and painted them white because the cost is much lower but I haven’t figured out what paints works best since they are chipping and I need to paint. Perhaps a spray on white plastic coating is better.

Getting a 2 inch pole and wench rack system saved my body. First year I had tri pole with 6 bo9 and it wasn’t fun. I want various housing options and will have a combination of vertical and horizontal troyers with the bo11s and I think bomax or excluders with attachments.

I will for sure be upgrading my s&k Bo11s port openings to use twist off caps like troyer uses. Upgrade looks simple and probably do it while on the rack. I’ll add a little cement to make sure if no birds in gourd. Pop off caps are a pain.

Perch kits and feeding trays are on my list but my diy works for now.

Bo9 are good for tree swallows and bluebirds.



Update: 5/17
Rained all morning. Looks like the second pair ,sub adult male and female, finally approve of each other. Female no longer trying to steal the asy male. Two random Martins came in during the rain to stop and rest. A male sub and asy female. The males all went nuts. After about 10 minutes they calmed down. They left when rain stopped. Corona and Covid are dropping down to yard to gather materials now the rain stopped. Hopping the second pair starts too.




Red.
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

Update: 5/21

Past few days weather has been bad. Cloudy, cold and rain or misty most of day.

I have two pair. Pair 1 Covid and corona did a little more nest building one day between rain showers. Female is still building in two gourds. Both Troyer horizontal with tunnel one under the other facing north. One nest has one green leaf. Hoping next few days will speed up nest as things dry out. I put nest materials in tray on the rack. Asy Adult pair.

Pair 2 Thomas and Greta both sub adults. Sleeping in gourd together but not nest building yet. Hope soon. They picked bo11 black that I painted white facing south. It’s opposite side of pole from covid sand corona gourds.


Observations 5/20-5/21

The Martins wake up and perch about 7-7:15am est each day. They all four fly off when sun hits pole or temps get close to 60.
They seem to be hunting for food and most days the subadults return around 2-3 briefly and then leave. They are not together. Each solo. Around 7-7:30pm they all return to pole. Typically not in pairs. Just solo or with one of the other pair. Adult asy male seems to always be last to arrive.

5/21

Strange male showed up and only the adult female corona was at pole. He was subadult but very assertive. He got next to her a few times but she moved. Then she took flight. He chased her for a good 15 minutes all over the sky and seemed he was trying to mate. She eventually did some top gun flying and got away.

While I’m happy another Martin showed up I hope he can attract a third female and form a third pair. I wasn’t available to see if the asy male deal with the stranger.


Hardware update.

My bo11plus arrived as well as my bo plus with tunnel and exhaust tower that spins. Added another coat of paint to my natural gourd and put gourds together and will swap out some empty spots or bo9. I will paint boplus white since the tunnel color doesn’t match gourd. I do like the bo plus black liner. Just wish it was 10-11 inch diameter. The bo11plus is a nice sturdy gourd and I think the heaviest due to liner and harder outer shell. . Think I’ll put troyer horizontals on the top rack and all the bo11plus and natural gourds on bottom rack. Just need to purchase some 45 degree arms for my rack to place troyer horizontals in the middle of the arms properly. So I’ll need 8 arms. The bo11plus have rotating top so it’s easy to adjust the gourds front facing direction.


Threats:

The starlings were out in full force today. Many mothers with 2-4 fledglings followers. None entered a gourd. Tried shooting a few but they flew off when they saw the rifle. I heard one nasty chirp chirp. And spotted a hosp and made plans to trap him ASAP.

Crows were causing havoc in my neighborhood. Saw two carrying mocking bird chics away. Sad but life. They came near my yard once but I fired my gun or mockingbird or cowbirds beat them away. Martins were feeding at the time.



Training:
Been walking by pole each morning , lunch and afternoon to get martins used to me. Subadult male sometimes chirps and fly’s off but lands again when I’m a farther away.


Tomorrow’s and the weekend temps should be better and I’m glad they all four made it through the bad week of weather.

Red



I
rrmartins
Posts: 1413
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:04 am
Location: Round Rock, TX

Sounds like your on your way!!! Usually if you dispatch a couple starlings the rest will leave. The HOSP on the other hand can be a constant battle, especially at first, your neighbors houses aren’t helping you any there, so stay on them, you will eventually start thinning them out some.
GOOD LUCK AND CONGRATS!!!!
2019
T14
7 pair
25 fledged
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

5.23 update

I got two pairs and a solo male. one pair is still nest building and the other is yet to start. I am hoping this sunny weather will let them eat more and the pair will start to nest build. The solo male caused a bunch of drama today. He was trying to steal the ladies. Even when corona went to the yard to get some nesting material he would swoop down and try to get her but Covid her mate was there to chase him off. I now see why the males stay so close to their females. they can get jumped on the ground.

I am testing a stream with my Arlo security cameras. Let me know what you think. Its a land lord view from a little below. best in the morning and day but once the sun is behind the trees the evening is not to bad.

I will try to have it up on days that are good.

https://www.twitch.tv/xxredtasticxx



Shane
Ryan
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: Eganville, Ontario
Martin Colony History: Visitors are rare. Three SY males seen in 10 years.

Looks clear, even near dark.
Home site: 12 cedar chalets - Plus two satellite sites which are also empty.
2010- 1 SY male on and off for a couple weeks
2011- 0 visits
2012- 0 visits
2013- 0 visits
2014- 1 SY male stopped in here and there for two weeks.
2015- 0 visits
2016- 0 visits
2017- 0 visits
2018- 0 visits
2019- Break-through year. Had a SY Male stop in on June 7th and stay all day, every day until end of June and built a nest. Hoping he returns in 2020 because I'm getting tired of updating this list.
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

Update: 5/26

Second pair started nest building today. Both pairs have been nest building all morning.

Solo male came by but flew off in search of a mate.

Martins have been returning a little later at night. Was 7-730 and now closer to sunset around 8:20pm.

Eliminated 5 house sparrow females I caught in trap yesterday. I was surprised. I saw one male house sparrow mating with a female in a bush behind my yard. Put trap back in yard and added birdseed. Hopefully I’ll catch both.

I’ll do nest check Friday and see if I got eggs. If I get lucky I could have babies hatch on my bday in June.

Hope everyone gets a little luck and attracts Martins.

Red
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

Update 6/5/20

I noticed a slight change in behavior in my first pair. Covid/ corona. They were taking turns flying off and getting food and then returning. I thought they must be sitting on eggs. It was time for my weekly nest check so I’ll find out soon. I also wanted to attach the owl guards to the gourds being used.

My second pair was doing a much better job fending off the Sy male that hasn’t found a female yet. They also stopped nest building so I hoped to find at least one egg.

I also got a ear syringe that I thought would be perfect for puffing a little sevin into the gourd since I wasn’t able to prior and didn’t want to disturb nest building.

My wife and I lowered the pole with her keeping an eye on if the females came out of the two gourds. Corona flew out of the top gourd and circled above.

We had our cameras ready and I opened the bottom gourd that corona sometimes flew into by mistake. We found two eggs in there and I was confused. I then opened the top gourd and found 3 eggs. My wife and I marked a small dot on the bottom 2 eggs and moved them to the top gourd. Quickly attached the guards and went to second pairs gourd.

We found one egg in there and I was happy. 2-4 days and she should start incubation like corona. We puffed a little sevin into the nest itself carful to not directly hit the eggs and then put the pole back up.

I didn’t attach the fourth owl guard because I wanted to keep time shorter and the second pair only used one gourd.

By this time the mom has attracted all the Martins back to the pole. Wife and I went back to the deck and waited. Within a minute corona was back in her nest and on her eggs.

They both quickly adapted to the owl guards and even perch on them at times. That was a relief as I know it’s not good to modify the gourd during the season as you could scare them off.

6/6/20

Both pairs are eating and returning more often. The long trips and returning at sunset has gone. They mostly stay within sight. I have two small ponds near my house and within 5 miles a reservoir. It’s been in high 80- low 90s past two days but I do have vents on all my gourds. I’ve seen them bringing big bugs back to the nest. I wonder if the males share food with females while they are incubating? The females do leave but it seems much less often. I’m assuming to get water.

I’m expecting babies to hatch 6/14-7/4 or so. So I would have fledglings mid July until early August. Very excited.

Added a few pictures. pole picture is before owl guards attached. You can see I took my neighbors yards in to account when I placed my pole as well as my deck/viewing location. I live in a suburbs and have HOA and I wasn't sure I would be able to attract martins in such a confined area but my yard was good enough after cutting trees down and trimming others to be lower than the height of the pole. I will trim more end of summer. I am going to talk to the HOA and local Boy Scouts about putting up a community pole so I can spread the martin word.


Red
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white-out
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:21 am
Location: ohio

Luckily troyer sells owl guard for their tunnels on horizontal gourd

Rediwell, do you have a link for these owl guards? I can't seem to find them...thanks, Doug
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

white-out
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:21 am
Location: ohio

Hey Red, thanks much.....Do you think adding them now will deter my first SY pair that are nest building?
Rediwill
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: fredericksburg, va
Martin Colony History: 2016 bought 6 gourds. Pole put up late in June due to HOA approval. Had visitor birds but no pairs that stayed.
2017 12 gourds- Pole up 3/1 and had male and females visit but didn’t pair up.
2018 upgraded to 2 inch sq pole/winch and will have 24 gourds. Many solo visitors but seem to be passing by. Will trim trees and check fly ways.
2019 saw only one or two martins all summer. Brothers Martins didn’t show up at all.
2020 3 pairs, 1st- 5 eggs/ 2nd hatched 2 fledged, 2 - 5 eggs/ 2-5 hatched fledging 7/20-8/1, 3rd formed late July and no nest built.

By the time you get the package they should have eggs and maybe even a few hatched. Adding them At that point I think is safer. They won’t abandon babies easily I read. It took 2-3 weeks to get mine after ordering. I wouldn’t do it during nest building as they might Get scared away.

I would just attach them to the occupied gourds and do the rest post season.

Red
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