How does a brake Winch Work

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How does a brake Winch Work

Postby Guest » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:01 am

I know it goes up and down and if you stop cranking it remains where it stopped with out any rotation pressure(holding force) being put on the handle.You casn then go in either direction with the winch handle with out releasing ang gogs.They have been around for eons but I have never stopped to think about it,anyone have an explanation.A picture of the internals would be even better.

dick

RC Moser
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:25 am

Postby RC Moser » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:34 pm

The one I got has a racketing paw that clicks going up and when you stop it catched and locks if from coming down. If you want to let it down you have to release the spring loaded paw or lever and crank it down. Some will click back and others you have to hold it in the down position to prevent free fall in case you finger slips off.

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:13 pm

Thanks RC the one I have is totally hands free toactivate.

I just spoke with a mechanical engr at a winch manufacturing facility and there is worm gear , so to speak, that is actually the drive handle screwing itself onto the shaft causing the positive pressure that is the brake while a drive gear is turning the drum overcoming the pressure created by the worm gear mechanism pushing a spring washer against a fixed washer on the drum, thus raising the load.The reverse action creates a slip fall of the load when the pressure is released but for the lowering to continue you must be turning the handle and the whole thing must have a dead load to work at all.

That worm was the hidden value that had this end all messed up in the head,I had no idea it existed. LOL


dick


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RC Moser
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:25 am

Postby RC Moser » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:23 pm

Dick, that one sounds too complicated to me :???: . I'm going to get me one of them 49 dollar 12V elect winches and I won't have to crank no more or bend down under the T-14 :lol: . I just plug it in hook up to a 12V batt. and push the button to raise and lower 8) 8) :lol: . One of my many next projects that seem to never get done :???:

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:12 am

I was thinking about rigging up a winch by welding a nut in place of the handle,then welding a mating socket wrench to a half inch rod 4 feet long and chucking it up in a variable speed 1/2 horse power drill motor I have . It is high torque, low speed. I know it would raise and lower a rack because when I have hung a drill bit up in the past it has enough torque to pull it from my hands. I purposely tried to hold it on an intentional hang up and could not.

If I were to do that I would have to haul an extension cord around ,but thats a lot lighter than a battery box. :grin:

I like the thought of a DC power winch tho. Where are you buying this?
I have a DC power supply I built years ago for another government project but not sure if it has the amp capacity to carry that winch electrical load. Like you say another winter project.

dick

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:25 am

Dick,

The worm gear explanation is correct. A worm gear is unique in that it redirects the torque direction 90 degrees from the axis of the driven gear. Since the drive (worm) gear is held in place on its shaft by thrust bearings it by nature becomes an 'automatic' brake stopping the driven gear (and its load) in whatever position you care to leave it in.

I built a worm gear winch for a martin house last spring - see pictures at bottom of the thread at http://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4937. While it was very smooth and took almost no effort to lift an amazing amount of weight, it was too precision to work well in an outside (inside a square tubular steel pole) environment. I had internalized the assembly to make the winch vandal proof. Also, the cost of fabricating such a system (parts and machine labor) would make a design like this cost prohibitive. The winch did stop and park in any position due to the worm gear design.

I think you might find that you can lift your houses by driving a nut with a socket on a 19 or 24 volt cordless drill. The better models (such as Craftsman, DeWalt, Porter Cable, etc) generate a tremendous amount of torque and very likely more than plenty to raise your housing. If this proves to be true you would eliminate the need for a power source such as a 120v feed or an automotive style battery. This would not only represent a convenient method of raising your housing but it would be less prone to vandal damage and safer than 120v power in an outdoor environment.

Jeff Nelson

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:30 am

Jeff I remember the prototype you speak of. I wondered how that came out.

You mention the high torque DC models and are right then I would have to by another expensive tool that I really don't nee hpowever that vs a DC winch may be a swap out.

dick

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:19 pm

Dick,
You mention the high torque DC models and are right then I would have to by another expensive tool that I really don't need however that vs a DC winch may be a swap out.
I own the 19.2 volt Craftsman cordless model and would never be without it. There are so many things I use it for that owning one is a given for me. I think you also would find many other ways to use it. Beyond that, the convenience of not coiling and uncoiling an extension cord, plus the safety factor are important also.

If you do decide to get a cordless drill choose a good name brand one with good a battery or you will regret it later. Watch sales as I see Sears and other stores run sales on these all the time.

As for the prototype; it works fine but would be prohibitively expensive to replicate, and it is too precision a design to survive dirt and crud that it is bound to accumulate over time in an outdoor environment. Kind of like installing a precision watch movement in a grandfather clock. It did satisfy my hankering to tinker for several weeks last spring. I rather doubt the martins knew (or appreciated) it though. :roll:

Jeff

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:08 pm

I have that same unit but it doesn't compare in torgue to the 1/2 HP Variable I have,probably not a quarter as much.

dick

Fred Kaluza~MI
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:40 pm
Location: Warren, Michigan
Martin Colony History: Tried and tried and had some visitors but...not enough good insects around here to keep them interested.

Postby Fred Kaluza~MI » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:10 pm

Dick, I have one on my HAM Radio Tower. Basically it's a slip-clutch formed by the compression of a couple disks "which look to be made of leather or asbestos material". When cranking the tower up, they just spin along for the ride and the ratchet pawl engages each tooth on the winch drum. When you take your hands off the winch handle, the pawled part of the winch tries to rotate backwards because of the weight of the raised tower. When properly designed, the mere friction of the compressed disks prevents reverse rotation. To lower the tower, yoiu only have to provide enough extra backwards torque to overcome the disk friction and the whole thing comes down by it's own weight. It works but is an admittedly risky proposition. PS, those friction disks get VERY warm when lowering the tower. I'm sure some browsing on the INternet will yield a site with good images and a better explanation.
To view my Cams... use "martin" for the login and password then use the Java viewer. Get full screen and sound by loading an app.

Click here for the "Wannabe Webcam 1"
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Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:09 am

Dick,

Yes, the larger drill will have more power, but have you tried the cordless? You may be surprised to see how much weight it can lift with the winch. Having said that, a factor that we have not mentioned is the gear ratio and the drum size of the winch. Those factors combined with the weight of the housing you will be raising will have a big influence on the power required.

The worm gear drive that I built used a 90:1 ratio that meant there was plenty of torque multiplication allowing practically any drill to drive it. In fact, with that much multiplication the bigger factor was having a high speed driver since it took many revolutions of the driving gear to rotate the driven gear and drum just once. It's kind of like the old engineering saying that with enough torque multiplication a mouse could pull a train locomotive - just not very fast.

The unit Fred mentioned sounds like a good idea except that it was probably manufactured for a more predictable set of requirements. With the large variety of martin housing and pole designs in use I suspect that this 'clutching' design would work great in some situations and not so good in others.

Fred didn't mention if the pressure on the clutching discs is adjustable. If it is then that would allow the unit to work with a wider set of circumstances.

Speaking of Fred.... Wha's uppppppp buddy?!!! How's things in the Eastern part of this frozen Great Lakes State? Look at the other recent posts here and see how all the Southerners are already close to seeing the return of their martins. That's just not right! We have almost four months to go before we can be reasonably certain that we can look out the window and see grass instead of snow. Michigan martins won't be appearing around here any time soon! :cry:

Jeff

Fred Kaluza~MI
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:40 pm
Location: Warren, Michigan
Martin Colony History: Tried and tried and had some visitors but...not enough good insects around here to keep them interested.

Postby Fred Kaluza~MI » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:15 pm

Hi Jeff. Say, what's up with our "local" Martin website? Has everyone been blocked out because of spammers and hackers? At any rate I too await the return of Spring however with the dismal news about Martins in Michigan posted in the last "Update" magazine, it would appear we have less and less reason to expect success. Perhaps when Mary's colony is the last one left in the state, the DNR will get involved (and wind up asking the same questions we've been asking ourselves for years). At any rate, the pond which was bull-dozed this past summer is still filling slowly as a result of rain and snow. I did not attempt to "line" it with anything and am counting on the high clay-content to allow it to fillup. We still have a long way to go regarding planting native plants around the bank but the shallow slope should reduce most erosion. The Tree Swallows that come back in April will find their "house" in the same place with the landscape around it substantially changed. Meanwhile, it's been a VERY unusual Autumn here. With so many of the native seed crops having failed in the northern boreal forest of Canada we've had (for the first time in 15 years, an unprecedented number of White-Breasted and Red-Breasted Nuthatches, Brown Creepers, Redpolls and Siskins. I'm glad they've found a place to find food and water but feel this is not a good long-term place to remain. I'd like it better if I knew their visits were driven by something other than starvation in the places they were raised. Having a pond is great! Now we're happy when it's sunny OR rainy! P.S. I never "developed" the well. You can see the "capped" PVC pipe sticking out of the ground behind the garage as well as the "lift-tube" I created to extract the water from the well which turned out to be VERY dry! Maybe I'll try again this coming Summer in a different spot. Best regards to you and your better-half as well as all my friends here on the web-site.
To view my Cams... use "martin" for the login and password then use the Java viewer. Get full screen and sound by loading an app.

Click here for the "Wannabe Webcam 1"
Click here for the "Wannabe Webcam 2"

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:20 am

Hi Fred!

I just successfully posted on the Michigan Purple Martin site so it is up and running. If you are referring to the lack of recent posts I rather imagine that it is due to the 'winter funk' that we Michiganders are subject to during this season of the eternal night. Then again many of us are probably busy working on our martin housing for next year in our dimly lit and poorly heated workshops. I spoke to Devere Sturm just last night by phone and he said he had been working in his (cold) barn this last week on new martin housing for the spring. I've been working on installing a wood-burner in my pole barn to get it warm enough to work in this cold weather. I have a gas heater there but it is just too expensive to run.

If you are having problems logging into the Michigan Martins site I do know that Mark made some software updates some time back that did reject many users - myself included. I also know that Mark has had some health issues recently to add to his load of trying to get situated in his new house. Hopefully his luck will change in the new year.

I understand exactly your concerns for martins here in Michigan. But come spring I think all of us will catch the old spring-time enthusiasm and stand in the yard looking hopefully at the sky while DawnSong blasts through the neighborhood. If martins do ultimately fail in Michigan it won't be for the lack of trying. On the plus side, if people like Mary, Connie, and other Michigan hosts continue to have good years maybe at some point us wanna-bes will start seeing some of the surplus birds. Let's hope....

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone and may your new year be filled with the (live - not recorded) sounds of martins!

Jeff Nelson


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