Emil, Your Sideboards

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TerryW
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Nashville, Arkansas

Emil, considering installing some sideboards. Do I have this right? Two small 1" x 2" plastic or whatever plates, mounted with 2" dimension vertical, touching and caulked to the surface of the porch and the surface of the gourd, installed 2" apart measured inside the sideboards?

I believe you stated on one of the old threads that you like to install the sideboards inside as well, and I suppose you could do it even without an inside porch, the inside ones being installed to prevent wing entrapment when the martin exits the gourd? Did you ever consider using like 2-1/4" x 2" sideboards and cutting a vertical slot on each side of the entrance in the wall of the gourd so that you have the sideboard protruding through to the inside of the gourd so that you have both an inside and an outside sideboard with each plate?

In one of your posts in other threads you stated your sideboards are made from thicker material, can't find what thickness you said now, and I'm trying to analyze why they need to be of thick material. Could the reason be more that a thicker sideboard would fit the martin's large feet better if he/she makes a habit of perching on the sideboard?

Finally, you , Steve and Brad seem to think that thicker material for the opening also deters starlings. Anybody ever try making excluder openings out of 1/2" or 3/8" thick Sintra PVC and using them on a house or gourd?

This is all fascinating, even makes me long to have a bad starling problem and doing some testing. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I had hardly any starlings problems previously and don't expect to with this new adventure either.
Emil Pampell-Tx
Posts: 6743
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas

I never tried putting the sideboards on the inside, even though it should work.

The SIMPLE idea behind this method is to make the entrance thicker so the starling cannot turn sideways and get his back inside the entrance. The starling must be forced to go straight in which it cannot do. (EXAMPLE: (if you could make the entrance 1 inch thick, it would have the same effect as sideboards)

I used 1/2inch sintra sideboards. I think that the 1/2in would be more caulking surface and would hold better (than 1/8in surface). What I meant is that any thickness would be ok if you can fasten it good.

I do not know if 1/2 in thick entrance would be thick enough, I have not tried it, but I know that 1 inch deep entrance will work

In answering your first question, yes, you have it right. However, I did not try going straight to a gourd with the sideboards, I attached them to the floor of the porch and the SREH entrance.

Another great advantage to this method is that it completely stops wing entrapment
Last edited by Emil Pampell-Tx on Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
Emil Pampell-Tx
Posts: 6743
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas

Terry, when I must get to the other side of a barbed wire fence, I cannot crawl straight in, I must turn sideways and tilt my body, get my back on the other side of the fence, then pull the rest of my body thru the fence. This is an analogy of what a starling does.

If the fence was thicker, like 1 foot thicker, I would not be able to tilt my body enough to get thru the fence.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
4th Gen Martin Fan
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
Location: TN/Collierville
Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.

Emil,
I learned years ago that I am a better visual learner. I grasp things better if I can see AND read about something.
I have read most of the post you have made about the sideboards and do not remember a picture of your sideboards. I understand the concept and agree that you are correct.
My problem is understanding how the sideboards are oriented and attached to the SREH entrance.
Can you or anyone else please post pictures of your sideboards on the PMCA Forum?

Someone will suggest pictures on Facebook. Not everyone, including me, will ever get involved with Facebook. "Farenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury was a book I read as a teenager and I see too many people today glued to their computer screens like Mildred.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
Emil Pampell-Tx
Posts: 6743
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas

I wish that I could post a photo on this thread but I cannot.
go to the 5th page earlier on this forum and in a thread there is a photo. The name of the thread is (QUESTION ABOUTDIFFERENT TYPES OF ENTRANCES...last date posted on Jul 2.) It shows a photo of the one that I used for the test....I am not good enough on the computers to know what happened, but my photos are all gone for me to post>…….computer problems and lack of experience
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
TerryW
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Nashville, Arkansas

Thank you, Emil, for the info, I believe I have it now.

1" thick SREH works, wow!

My goofy mind immediately pictured a tunnel-shaped excluder about 3" deep. Bet a starling couldn't enter that, and probably a martin as well.. :lol:

I don't understand why it is harder to post pictures on this forum. That's a disadvantage that the PMCA should not be content to live with. I wonder, would the Forum administrator please respond to this?

If you could get a picture to the administrator or to Steve, who does pictures it appears, I bet he would post it for you. I might work on it myself if you want to text or email me a picture, Emil.
TerryW
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Nashville, Arkansas

No problem, Emil, I get why it works. It prevents the entering bird from tilting vertically so that for entries such as the crescent and the Conley the entering bird experiences an opening dimension that is greater than 1-3/16" allowing it to slip through the SREH more easily. Makes perfect sense.

Not sure I see how it helps with an excluder entry, since a tilt off vertical doesn't give the bird relief from the 1-3/16" entering dimension. I suppose though that it does, as you say, help prevent wing entrapment. This knowledge sort of pushes us toward saying excluder entries are better, doesn't it?

I suppose also that still nothing but a trap, pellet or 22 bullet will prevent the starling of smaller stature and that needle beak from taking over a cavity even if a good SREH is present. Wonder if the deviation from the norm of stature is as great for starlings as it is for humans?

Looks to me like "where we are at" at this stage of evolution of entry design is that because of the need for sideboards we should throw away our crescents and Conley entrances.

I believe the PMCA gets it with their inclusion of traction porches for their popular Excluder gourd, both inner and outer porches, and their offering of the excluder 2 entry. It just doesn't have a tunnel, you have to buy one to get one and make a mod, then it won't have no dang inner porch... :-(

I'd also comment that in my maybe not so humble opinion Andrew Troyer with his just a bit inferior Conley SREH entrance is a bit behind. He should be offering his wonderfully-tunneled, porched, horizontal gourd with an Excluder entrance (and an inner porch). Then we wouldn't need Emil's sideboards. Then those exiting fledglings would be a step ahead of other fledglings who departed the nest having inferior entrance design... 8) ...chuckle
randy741985
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:08 pm
Location: NE Alabama
Martin Colony History: 2018-First Year 0 Martins
2019- Lots Lookers
2020- TBD

This has the pics Im going to try it with my oblong entrances.



https://www.purplemartin.org/forum/view ... ds#p282038
2018-14 Gourds First Year 0 Martins
2019- 14 Gourds Lots Lookers
2020- 6 Gourds TBD
Emil Pampell-Tx
Posts: 6743
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas

Thanks Randy, I think your addition works,, at least it works for me.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
Brad Biddle
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:22 pm
Location: Marshall County AL

The reason I think a thicker entrance helps is because.....

The only way I can explain it is, if you took a piece of pipe and had it bored out to the exact same dimensions as your wedding band, you wouldn't be able to slide it on your finger, but you can easily put on or take off your ring. If that makes sense.
Martin landlord since 2003. Currently offering 132 plastic gourds with tunnels and all SREH.
TerryW
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Nashville, Arkansas

Thanks, Randy, the jpg's work for me. I was picturing them wrong. Pictures are truly worth a bunch of words.

I still have 18 of my old Naturelines that have been installed all this time at a Game and Fish Education center. They had crescented tunnels and porches. I say had because the site went into mismanagement, and I was no longer responsible for them. Almost every one of them had lost their entrances and just had big ole tunnel openings and the needle-beaks had taken them over...the bxxxxxxx...I was glad to get the gourds back and have now refurnished them with new entrances, and I cleaned them all up and painted them...you could poke your finger through them if you tried hard...antiques now, but they are going back up somewhere, not back out there though...had enough of them. Will use some of my old Sintra that I have been keeping around for years and put Emil's sideboards on everyone of them. Bought 8 Troyer horizontals with the Conleys and will eventually sideboard those as well.
randy741985
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:08 pm
Location: NE Alabama
Martin Colony History: 2018-First Year 0 Martins
2019- Lots Lookers
2020- TBD

Brad Biddle wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:25 pm
The reason I think a thicker entrance helps is because.....

The only way I can explain it is, if you took a piece of pipe and had it bored out to the exact same dimensions as your wedding band, you wouldn't be able to slide it on your finger, but you can easily put on or take off your ring. If that makes sense.


So Brad your analogy got me thinking, use a 2" pvc pipe cut half into cross sectonal. About 3\4" thick then putting on the inside of the entrance?

does that make sense?
2018-14 Gourds First Year 0 Martins
2019- 14 Gourds Lots Lookers
2020- 6 Gourds TBD
Brad Biddle
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:22 pm
Location: Marshall County AL

Are you talking about using a short piece of 2" pipe as an entrance? If so, then no that won't work. A starling can easily go in a 2" hole. My analogy only applies to birds going in entrances smaller than they could normally go in, if they were thicker.
Martin landlord since 2003. Currently offering 132 plastic gourds with tunnels and all SREH.
TerryW
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Nashville, Arkansas

Brad Biddle wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm
Are you talking about using a short piece of 2" pipe as an entrance? If so, then no that won't work. A starling can easily go in a 2" hole. My analogy only applies to birds going in entrances smaller than they could normally go in, if they were thicker.
He may be talking about cutting a 1" long half-arc from the pipe and making something that resembles a thick crescent out of it. I'll see if I can make one and show it here. Probably have to go to town and get a piece of pipe though.
randy741985
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:08 pm
Location: NE Alabama
Martin Colony History: 2018-First Year 0 Martins
2019- Lots Lookers
2020- TBD

TerryW wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:49 pm
Brad Biddle wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm
Are you talking about using a short piece of 2" pipe as an entrance? If so, then no that won't work. A starling can easily go in a 2" hole. My analogy only applies to birds going in entrances smaller than they could normally go in, if they were thicker.
He may be talking about cutting a 1" long half-arc from the pipe and making something that resembles a thick crescent out of it. I'll see if I can make one and show it here. Probably have to go to town and get a piece of pipe though.

That is exactly what I mean.

Thanks Terry
2018-14 Gourds First Year 0 Martins
2019- 14 Gourds Lots Lookers
2020- 6 Gourds TBD
4th Gen Martin Fan
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:19 pm
Location: TN/Collierville
Martin Colony History: I have been exposed to purple martin sounds in utero when my mother went out to get my father away from his martin colony.
I played around the martin colony every summer and watched as my father maintained his colony. In the late 50's until the 70's he did not notice European Starlings in south Texas.
When old enough, I helped maintain his colony. My primary task was eliminating English House Sparrows with a 1956 Benjamin 317 .177 air rifle.
When I settled into my own home, I started my first colony with an original Trio Castle and Trio Grandpa. When I moved again, I did not put up any martin houses. Frustration with European Starlings in the Southeast US was overwhelming.
Found PMCA Forum and learned about modern enlarged compartments and SREHs.
Inherited my father's last martin house, a Trio Grandma, modified it to modern specifications and have had good results since then.

If you are going to make a half arc of PVC pipe to put inside of a crescent entrance to reduce wing entrapment, would you use a 3" inside diameter PVC pipe since the basis of a crescent is a 3" circle?

How does a 1" thick half arc of a 2" inside diameter PVC pipe would work? I would like to see a picture of how that would work so I can understand.
Mark.
Firm believer in HOSP/EUST Control, Enlarged Compartments, SREHs, Pole Predator Guards, Owl/Hawk Guards, Mite/Parasite Control, Housing Insulation, and Vents for Compartment Cooling.
PMCA Member.
TerryW
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:02 pm
Location: Nashville, Arkansas

4th Gen Martin Fan wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:19 am
If you are going to make a half arc of PVC pipe to put inside of a crescent entrance to reduce wing entrapment, would you use a 3" inside diameter PVC pipe since the basis of a crescent is a 3" circle?

How does a 1" thick half arc of a 2" inside diameter PVC pipe would work? I would like to see a picture of how that would work so I can understand.
Take a 2" pvc pipe which is roughly 1" inside radius and saw off a 3/4" long piece of the pipe; you will have a complete circle of pipe 3/4" thick (the dimension Emil says his sideboards should not be less than). At any point of the circle measure down from the inside 1-3/16" (crescent opening size) down and make side marks, then cut the side of the circle off at the marks so you are left with a bit more (3/16") than a half circle. Look at what you have left...looks a bit like a crescent opening, right, set its two legs down on a flat surface...measures almost like a crescent too, right...the arc is just a bit off and there's no floor to the crescent? Now at the two" width dimension, cut away that portion from each leg. Glue a 3/4' deep Emil sideboard to each side of the circular piece and you have Emil's sideboarded crescent opening. Put a 3/4' deep floor on it to match the rest of it and, viola, you have a sideboarded crescent that is 3/4" deep and ready for mounting in a house or gourd and it may have max starling resistance and protection against wing entrapment. Hopefully it won't be martin proof too :lol: !

It will be a while before I can build the thing because I am tied up with other things, but I promise I will do it, and looking at Lowe's Sat I found a 3/4" PVC board, so I will probably use it instead of the pipe and make it true-crescent size. Will make it reproducible too because I will actually make a router jig for it.
Whippy
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:15 pm
Location: Plano, Texas
Martin Colony History: 2016 - late to put up, many visitors
2017 - 1 pair, 3 fledged
2018- 2 pair, 12 fledged
2019 - 4 pair, 21 fledged
2020 - 15 pair, 67 fledged

I have an interest in making these for my Trio - Wade. I received and installed crescent opening for the house but they are just cut out of the sheet metal. From reading your plans, It looks like I can make these and put them on the inside of the Trio by glueing them to the factory made crescent panel.

Would you agree this will work for my application?

Thank you,

Coolwhips
Emil Pampell-Tx
Posts: 6743
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:26 pm
Location: Tx, Richmond (SW of Houston)
Martin Colony History: First started in Gretna, La in 1969 with a small homemade house, have had martins ever since at 2 different homes in Texas

I do not know if a 2in crescent will allow the martins to enter. If you have a 2in pipe cut to size that the martins will use, and if that pipe is cut to 3/4inch, you will not need sideboards. What I am saying is that a 3/4 inch thick opening does not require sideboards.
PMCA Member, 250 gourds, 6 poles, 2traps
Whippy
Posts: 596
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:15 pm
Location: Plano, Texas
Martin Colony History: 2016 - late to put up, many visitors
2017 - 1 pair, 3 fledged
2018- 2 pair, 12 fledged
2019 - 4 pair, 21 fledged
2020 - 15 pair, 67 fledged

Emil Pampell-Tx wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:43 pm
I do not know if a 2in crescent will allow the martins to enter. If you have a 2in pipe cut to size that the martins will use, and if that pipe is cut to 3/4inch, you will not need sideboards. What I am saying is that a 3/4 inch thick opening does not require sideboards.
Thank you, Emil. I'll mess around with it today.

Coolwhips.
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